Take a look at the transcript of what Councilor Knutzen said at the April 26, 2011 Council Meeting, on the tragic story of Mr. Wayne Groen. Link to the most recent Herald article on the matter here.
I notice that there were no words of prayer for the law enforcement officers involved in this event.
Two human beings, who also have families, were flying a helicopter at around 500 feet in the course of serving and protecting folks like Mr. Knutzen and Mr. Groen and their families.
Then Mr. Groen shined a high powered spotlight on them, and blinded them. Mr. Groen could not have accomplished this with a flashlight, or a piss ant laser pointer. He went and got hold of some million candle power light and shined it at that helicopter.
In doing so, he put those law enforcement officers in immediate physical danger.
If they had been killed, or severely injured, in the line of duty because of Mr. Groen's actions, then their kids would have been without fathers forever.
Mr. Knutzen didn't know he wasn't supposed to shine a high powered spotlight on a low-flying helicopter at night?
Well, now he knows.
But I'll bet most people don't own a high powered spotlight, and furthermore I don't think those that do own spotlights would shine them at a low flying aircraft at night.
Know why?
Common Sense.
That's why.
What constitutes common sense for the Federal Government is debatable.
But what constitutes common sense for Mr. Groen is not.
Mr. Groen was convicted by a jury of his peers, not by the Federal Government.
And that jury of citizens, employing their own common sense, found Mr. Groen to be felony stupid. I personally hope he gets leniency, and no prison time, but whatever he does get... he deserves.
My Dad is a cop. He works in a small town in the midwest.
When my Dad would come home from work, sometimes he would come home bloody and beat up. Sometimes he would come home narrowly avoiding injury or death. These facts are not lost on the loved ones of people who work in law enforcement.
Cops have kids too, folks.
Prayers for cops are made by their kids, since none of the rest of you can be bothered to, apparently.
And on behalf of every child of a cop, you are all very welcome. We love having our parents risk death so you can enjoy your rights safely.
As a personal favor to me, try not to blind any cops today.
If that's not too much to ask.
In talking to the U.S. attorney, it’s very disconcerting to me how they want to make an example out of Mr. Groen. This isn’t somebody hiding in the bushes at the airport with a laser shining it at pilots. This is someone - I know I was there in my bed that night wondering what the heck was going on outside my door that there was a helicopter shaking pictures off the wall. So, you know, granted I wouldn’t go out there and shine a light at them, but did I know that it was illegal to do that? I don’t think I did either, and I don’t know how many of you do either until now. So to tell somebody that his kids are going to be without a father for the next 5 to 50 years, his employees are going to be without a boss for the next 5 to 50 years over shining a light up in the air, as council member Larson stated with the (Growth Management Act), the lack of common sense in the GMA is a little disconcerting to him. The lack of common sense in the federal government to make an example out of this lacks common sense. So I don’t know how many of you are following this, but I would ask that you pray. And if you have a chance to call the U.S. attorney’s office and talk to them and tell them what can be done and pray for the Groen family that those kids are not without a father for the next 5 to 50 years. Because, to me, this does not seem like something that warrants 5 to 50 years. It warrants a fine. What he did was stupid. I’ll agree with that. I just wish it wouldn’t have come to this point, but it has. And I wish there was some way we could talk some common sense into this because he is on trial right now, and I know it can’t be a very pretty situation for that family.”
I notice that there were no words of prayer for the law enforcement officers involved in this event.
Two human beings, who also have families, were flying a helicopter at around 500 feet in the course of serving and protecting folks like Mr. Knutzen and Mr. Groen and their families.
Then Mr. Groen shined a high powered spotlight on them, and blinded them. Mr. Groen could not have accomplished this with a flashlight, or a piss ant laser pointer. He went and got hold of some million candle power light and shined it at that helicopter.
In doing so, he put those law enforcement officers in immediate physical danger.
If they had been killed, or severely injured, in the line of duty because of Mr. Groen's actions, then their kids would have been without fathers forever.
Mr. Knutzen didn't know he wasn't supposed to shine a high powered spotlight on a low-flying helicopter at night?
Well, now he knows.
But I'll bet most people don't own a high powered spotlight, and furthermore I don't think those that do own spotlights would shine them at a low flying aircraft at night.
Know why?
Common Sense.
That's why.
What constitutes common sense for the Federal Government is debatable.
But what constitutes common sense for Mr. Groen is not.
Mr. Groen was convicted by a jury of his peers, not by the Federal Government.
And that jury of citizens, employing their own common sense, found Mr. Groen to be felony stupid. I personally hope he gets leniency, and no prison time, but whatever he does get... he deserves.
My Dad is a cop. He works in a small town in the midwest.
When my Dad would come home from work, sometimes he would come home bloody and beat up. Sometimes he would come home narrowly avoiding injury or death. These facts are not lost on the loved ones of people who work in law enforcement.
Cops have kids too, folks.
Prayers for cops are made by their kids, since none of the rest of you can be bothered to, apparently.
And on behalf of every child of a cop, you are all very welcome. We love having our parents risk death so you can enjoy your rights safely.
As a personal favor to me, try not to blind any cops today.
If that's not too much to ask.
Knutzen's highly selective view of justice. Groen was someone he listens to, ergo he has a valid point to make. Folks Knutzen doesn't listen to? They get his thumb jammed to their eye, and have to listen to his cockeyed rants.
ReplyDeleteIf he were smarter, he'd be a menace-- the dimmest bulb in a chandelier of lilliputian wattage.
Any fool knows that spotlights won't work on helicopters, when they're Black Helicopters sent by George Soros. That's why they're black, "stealthy" against spotlights wielded by patriots to defend their wives and daughters against hordes of secular humanist rapists!
ReplyDelete(I use a powerful CO2 laser, not a spotlight, whenever the Black Helicopters come near. Don't tread on me.)
Best wishes,
Abe Jacobson
Knutsen was totally inappropriate to bring this up in the council meeting. He is so naive in his beliefs and words and his ego has gotten the best of him since he was elected. We live in a land of laws; if you don't like it, work to change the laws. I'm sick of this north county red-neck jabbering.
ReplyDeleteShannon P.
P.S. Thank you, Apexnerd, and your father.
ReplyDeleteI live next door to Mr. Groen and was also wondering what was going on that night. I went outside and saw the blackhawk hovering directly over Wayne's house at what I'm guessing was about 150 feet. I went to Seattle to watch Wayne's trial and was shocked to hear both pilots perjure themselves over and over again on the stand.
ReplyDeleteIf what Wayne did was so bad and what the pilots did was so right.... why did they continuously lie on the stand about it? The pilots repeatedly claimed that Wayne blinded them for 3-5 minutes, even as they were flying away from them, even when they were over Edaleen Dairy some 2 miles away!
These Border Patrol agents swore an oath to uphold the Constitution but lowered themselves to the height of common criminals by lying while under oath.
The charges should be dropped and the Border Patrol should make a very public apology to Mr. Groen and his family. After that, they should charge the pilots with perjury and have them go through what the Groens have gone through. I think it's about time the Border Patrol is held accountable for the harassment and lies that seem to be so commonplace with the agents working in this area.
Wow. Convicting someone of perjury (a crime) online.
ReplyDeleteThe difference here is that Mr Groen was given a fair trial before he was convicted.
Stay classy, Anonymous.
ApexNerd, I tend to agree with Anon that LE frequently exaggerate claims in trial about speeds, lengths of contact, demeanor of suspects, etc. Our 'appeal to authority,' which seems hardwired into the human brain, gives weight to these claims among juries.
ReplyDeleteI find the 'three-to-five minutes' claim a bit overbroad (try timing it) and in any case it seems to directly undercut the claimed peril to the pilot(s) if they could endure that light so long.
I know many people along the border who have had their peace and security shattered by the ineffectual monster (and bottomless tax suckhole) known as 'Homeland Security,' which treats the border like No Man's Land in Waziristan or the DMZ in North Korea. What was sold to the public as security against terrorism is simply an extension of the idiotic, endless and ineffectual War on Drugs. These people's property is destroyed by agents playing soldier in their 'command vehicles' with no relief in sight.
Just because a trial was done, and done fairly, does not mean justice was done or the public's interest was served.
Oh, and Bill Knutzen is STILL an inappropriate buffoon.
ReplyDeleteOkay Anon36... (and everybody else)
ReplyDeleteI'm not going to be agreeing to disagree on this matter.
The notion that police "testi-lie" is off point.
The precise amount of time that a person is blinded when that person is piloting a low flying helicopter is irrelevant, also.
It is verifiably true that the pilot was temporarily blinded by Mr Groen.
It is verifiably true that Mr. Groen was found with the spotlight in his possession.
The notion that an argument can be made that there is some doubt about the veracity of the police officers, and their testimony, is not relevant to whether or not there is a reasonable doubt that Mr. Groen placed these law enforcement officers in physical danger.
Whether you believe the LEOs were blinded for three to five minutes or for less than 30 seconds, the pilot of the helicopter was rendered unable to see while he was in control of the aircraft. I don't believe there is an acceptable amount of time to blind a pilot operating an aircraft. I'm not going to entertain the notion that the danger these LEOs were in was trivial.
It's trivial, and debatable, until someone is killed, or severely injured.
When helicopters fly low, there is a great deal of risk involved, perhaps someone with experience flying such craft could make an informed comment on that.
More to the point, perjury is like any other crime. The burden of proof is on the accuser. Proof in a court of law, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the cops were lying. Or let it go. It is inappropriate to convict anyone of a criminal act without the benefit of due process. No special consideration for the police, just hold them to the same standard to which we hold everyone else.
I'm not going to accept the notion that because sometimes cops lie on the stand that it is acceptable to assume they are lying on the stand until it can be proven that they aren't.
There is no equivalent opposing point to be made here. Mr Groen was given a fair trial, and the police were not on trial at all.
As far as the effectiveness of DHS, that is a matter for our elected leaders to hammer out, not a matter for law enforcement in the field to be sorting out.
The point I was making was that the blackhawk was hovering 150 feet above his house. The Border Patrol pilots were putting everyone in danger by hovering over someones house at that altitude. Then, knowing that they were way out of line, perjured themselves on the stand by saying that they never dropped below 600 feet and never got within three quarters of a mile of Mr. Groen's house.
ReplyDeleteIf you're making the point that it's OK for LEO's to do whatever they want and then lie about it later to cover their own butts, then welcome to the police state.
I'm not going to give them the benefit of the doubt because "not all cops lie", because I was there and saw exactly what they did and was also there to hear exactly what they said they did and didn't do. I don't care if you believe the pilots or not, I KNOW they lied about what they did that night. So back to my original point, could they have gotten a conviction if they took the stand and told the truth? They obviously didn't think so.
So, is it considered a "fair trial" if the accusers lie about everything that happened that night? I submit to you that it isn't otherwise perjury wouldn't be illegal.
If you want to just accept that police "testi-lie" and that makes it OK, be my guest. I, however, will continue to hold LEO's to a higher standard than you do. I don't think "testi-lieing" is at all "off-point" in this discussion, I actually think it is the reason for this discussion. Once again, they didn't think they could get a conviction without it.
I'm getting unexpected push back from Anonymous on this.
ReplyDeleteWe are now flirting with a blogosphere version of a vicious cycle. Anonymous has offered no substantive new information from the previous post.
So, I'll restate some facts and then move on.
Making a literally anonymous claim that someone committed a crime (perjury) is no where near the burden of proof needed to assert that it is true. I don't believe Anonymous' assertions, in part because those assertions are being made anonymously.
The testimony of the LEOs alone are not the only factor that were considered when determining Mr. Groen's verdict. He was not convicted on the word of the helicopter crew alone.
Anonymous obviously doesn't like the government poking around any where near his (I'm assuming Anonymous is a guy) property.
I'm not even going to bother going into detail about why Anonymous didn't contact Mr Groen's defense team on the matter of rebutting the testimony of the LEOs.
The LEOs didn't make up the fact that Mr Groen shined a high powered spotlight (not a flash light or a laser pointer) at the helicopter while the crew was wearing light intensifying goggles.
If you think the LEOs committed perjury, tell the prosecutor's office and see if they will try and convict. Perjury is taken seriously by prosecuting attorneys.
Anonymous can continue with the synaptic misfires without me from here on out.
The view must be pretty good from the outside looking in. Why would you believe somebody that was actually there when you can read about what really happened in the paper....lol.
ReplyDeleteDoes any one else have a comment about the value of an anonymous accusation of perjury (or any other crime) on a blog relative to the value of sworn testimony made on the record in court?
ReplyDeleteI'm tapped out on this one.
So my points are invalid because I didn't put my name, but adding something as anonymous as "ApexNerd" suddenly makes perjury legal. That's as ridiculous as thinking that you can take down a 44 million dollar military helicopter with a $10 flashlight!
ReplyDeleteHave some more Kool-aid "ApexNerd".
How about put those border security goons on foot, donkey, horse, or bike patrol?
ReplyDeleteNo need for some hot shot pilot flying 150 feet at night over people's houses.
They can see just fine into your window from 2000 feet with their spiffy night vision. 150 feet is just asinine.